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RE: st: gologit2


From   Maarten buis <maartenbuis@yahoo.co.uk>
To   statalist@hsphsun2.harvard.edu
Subject   RE: st: gologit2
Date   Thu, 17 Apr 2008 20:55:43 +0100 (BST)

The easiest way to make everybody happy when the Brant test rejects the
null, is to show an ologit and a gologit, and (hopefully) show that the
results are very similar. Then you can refer to the distinction between
statistical and practical significance, or the conclusion does not
change, etc.

Hope this helps,
Maarten

--- David Jacobs <jacobs.184@sociology.osu.edu> wrote:

> While I find this entire discussion extremely interesting and useful 
> for my research, I don't yet find a solution for how to handle 
> referees who often can be mechanical and rigid about the departures 
> they will allow from the most conservative textbook practices.
> 
> The question of how one would get an analysis based on an ordinal 
> estimator into a strong journal if it doesn't pass the Brant test, 
> unfortunately still remains unanswered.  While some of the advice has
> 
> been invaluable, I need statistical cites for these suggested 
> departures from this test.  The Scott Long book on this subject 
> (Long, J. Scott. 1997. Regression Models For Categorical and Limited 
> Dependent Variables.  Thousand Oaks CA:Sage) won't be of any help 
> because he simply states that ordinal analyses often won't pass the
> test.
> 
> Can anyone offer statistical or econometric cites that justify the 
> Brant test substitutes that people have mentioned on the list?
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> Dave Jacobs
> 
> At 03:04 PM 4/17/2008, you wrote:
> >In an earlier response in this thread,
> >Richard Williams <Richard.A.Williams.5@ND.edu>  remarked:
> >
> > >My experience is that it is rare to have a model where the
> > >proportional odds assumption isn't violated!  Often, though, the
> > >violation only involves a small subset of the variables, in which
> > >case gologit2 can be useful.  You might also want to consider more
> > >stringent alpha levels (e.g. .01, .001) to reduce the possibility
> of
> > >capitalizing on chance.  You can also try to assess the practical
> > >significance of violations, e.g. do my conclusions and/or
> predicted
> > >probabilities really change that much if I stick with the model
> whose
> > >assumptions are violated as opposed to a (possibly much harder to
> > >understand and interpret) model whose assumptions are not
> violated.
> >
> >I would sound in to support the idea that the Brant test commonly 
> >detects departures from proportional odds that are so small as to be
> 
> >uninteresting.  In fact, I would suggest as a conjecture that, if 
> >the sample size
> >is large enough to trust the asymptotic p-values from the Brant 
> >test,  then the sample size is large enough that trivial departures 
> >from  prop. odds will achieve small p-values.  I would suggest 
> >instead  approaching this specification problem by looking at the 
> >relative increase in the pseudo-R^2 value associated with moving to 
> >a non-proportional odds model. My own experiments on using such 
> >measures to address the related problem of variable choice ordinal 
> >logit models shows that one measures is about as good as the next. 
> >(see my comment in 
> >http://www.stata.com/statalist/archive/2008-03/msg00249.html  for a 
> >brief discussion of this point and a citation.)
> >Now, I admit that there is a problem in knowing exactly how big a 
> >*relative* change in R^2 (10%?) warrants a more complicated model, 
> >but I don't think this is worse than to p-values as the sole
> arbiter.
> >
> >Regards,
> >
> >=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
> >Mike Lacy, Assoc. Prof.
> >Soc. Dept., Colo. State. Univ.
> >Fort Collins CO 80523 USA
> >(970)-491-6721
> >
> >
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-----------------------------------------
Maarten L. Buis
Department of Social Research Methodology
Vrije Universiteit Amsterdam
Boelelaan 1081
1081 HV Amsterdam
The Netherlands

visiting address:
Buitenveldertselaan 3 (Metropolitan), room Z434

+31 20 5986715

http://home.fsw.vu.nl/m.buis/
-----------------------------------------


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